Talk about probability, try this. Yesterday I wrote this line and I “probably” sounded like an uninformed bumpkin - “What kind of society is it that will permit a government ministry and a judicial system to operate on the basis of probability rather than evidence?"
That means a line of thinking such as what follows: "We cannot prove that they did it, but they probably did." "We cannot prove they are a risk, but they probably are."
That means a line of thinking such as what follows: "We cannot prove that they did it, but they probably did." "We cannot prove they are a risk, but they probably are."
What kind of society? Our society. What was I thinking? It's integral to our code of law. Of course the Prosecution as it were, that is legal counsel Mr. Finn Jensen representing the Ministry of Children in the Bayne Case during its final day yesterday, employed probability as his primary weapon. He did that because he can. I know, I know that Jensen was not the Prosecution but in arguing his client's case for Continuing Care of Paul's and Zabeth's three children he essentially prosecuted them, not on the basis of evidence but of probability. More accurately he persecuted them.
Child protection proceedings are not criminal in nature so they are referred to as civil proceedings for which the standard of proof is a balance of probability.
Now that is 'probability' in reference to a court proceeding, but 'probability' is reason enough to remove someone's child without a court order. Here is one of B.C.'s statements: "A director may, without a court order, remove a child if the director has reasonable grounds to believe that the child needs protection and that the child's health or safety is in immediate danger, or no other less disruptive measure that is available is adequate to protect the child." And of course the Director did that and has held these children for three years now and this hearing is to keep the children permanently, because of … probability.
Probably the court case won't finish when we thought it would. I should have said that. Oh did I say yesterday was scheduled as the final day – oops! So sorry! Premature. Who was talking on Thursday? That's right, Mr. Finn Jensen. Did he finish? Oh NO! Can you recall that he said two weeks ago that he would need one half day (2.5 hours specifically), and he and the Baynes and the Judge agreed that would be enough, and then in one hour during the afternoon of that same day, both Finn and the Baynes would each have 30 minutes to speak to an application by the Ministry to change the time of the Baynes' visitation with their children? Yes. Well near noon yesterday, the judge sensing that there was much more ground to be covered asked Jensen once again how much time he would need. Jensen said one hour. Ohh, but following lunch Jensen told the judge he now needed another half day. Why shouldn't we be surprised? That's a reciprocal question. Likely Jensen wanted to stall because he wasn't ready for the discussion of the visitation application but the Judge did listen to that in the afternoon. The result is that today Friday October 1 at 1:10 PM the Judge will deliver his ruling on that matter by video conference at room 204 in the Courthouse.
So, yes on Wednesday October 6th at 9:30 pm Jensen will have another half day because he has so much drivel to wade the judge through. And he will plow through all of the same twisted content and hypothetical, pathetical (this is a new word coined for this occasion) stretches of information and facts. And he will remind the judge as he did today, that he better not make a ruling or come to a conclusion before all of the evidence is presented and before him. I am confident Judge Crabtree knows this already and he also knows to what he has been listening these past two court days – an insult to the system of justice, a verbal assault upon two young parents.
I will tell you a few more nuggets tomorrow.
This is not only an insult to the judiciary but to humanity. CFCSA is designed to circumvent due process of law not only by lowering the standard of proof but also allowing hearsay, unqualified opinions, hypothesis as evidence. Furthermore, no decision can be overturned based on informality of the process and legal technicality. All charter right protections do not apply because it is not criminal and penal in nature. Statute, case law and the legal process are so lopsided that there is no room to reform without killing CFCSA and revoking general child removal authority.
ReplyDeleteSociety suffers by paying high taxes to support such oppressive and destructive system. Higher crime rate results from scared police resource diverted to escort SW in conducting their hideous act of removing children and to intimidate parents in conducting their CP "investigation". Court time is wasted like what your folks saw in court and court date booked but cancelled by MCFD at the last minute as a delaying tactic or to avoid the truth of unrighteous removals being uncovered. Real criminals get away free because of delay in trial, hence contravening their right to be tried within a reasonable time [Section 11(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms].
Politicians are also an indirect victim as they are often blamed when removed children die in foster home and have to look for ways to squeeze more taxes (like the HST) to finance this pathetic "service". Gordon Campbell won't be reading this blog. If his think tank does, tell him to kill CFCSA, surrender child removing authority to the people and use the money saved to rescind the hated HST. He will emerge as a winner and a hero. His name will be written in history. Do the right thing before stepping down.
To special interests in the "child protection" industry, enough is NOT enough. It is up to us, the people, to rise and put a stop on this fiasco and disguised oppression. A Vancouver lawyer Lawrence Wong wrote an article on this issue at
http://www.chineseinvancouver.ca/2009/03/gb-enough-is-not-enough/
This problem is not new. It will take a mass movement to dismantle them. For the love of our children and our nation, are you ready?
I would be curious to know how long it took the transcripts to be produced for Christie's summation.
ReplyDeleteAnother effect of such a long oratory is to drive up the cost and turnaround time of the transcript, as well as cost and time to review the document.
If it takes 2 weeks to do a transcript, that takes us nearly to the end of October. A week for Christie to respond enters November.
The judge would likely need a minimum of a month, and quite possibly two months.
1:13 AM Anon
ReplyDeleteI have understood Judge Crabtree to say that he wants the rest of this case to move forward as quickly as possible. After Jensen's closure on the 6th of October, Crabree said he will expedite the production of the transcript in perhaps one week's time. Perhaps the Christie / Bayne crew can do their summation in a couple of weeks, maybe less. Then the judge will announce how long his deliberations and writing of a ruling will take. I have no idea what that timeline might be.
And yes, for the Baynes the transcript cost is exorbitant. That too, is something that the system should be paying for and simply to provide to the Baynes. Their other less helpful option is to sit in a registrar's office and spend days pouring over the document and taking notes.
12:58 AM Anon
ReplyDeleteYou have written a perceptive and stirring comment today.
Your link to lawyer Lawrence Wong's blog post is appreciated.
The Chinese community are particular committed to family and appalled when government efforts to develop a family is back burnered in favour of interruption and dissolution. Further the Chinese community has been the most supportive by far of the Baynes and their plight. Thank you.
Your call to action and your query about readiness will be interesting to follow.
Awesome comments Ron!...pathetical, Love your new word! Yesterday was once again a Disgrace! Unbelievable how much "twisting" of information goes on. I guess we shouldn't be surprised by now, it seems to me that this whole case has been based on that. How much of our hard-earned, tax-paying dollars to date has been wasted on this case?...not to mention all the pain and total heartache this has caused the Bayne family. Keep up the great work!
ReplyDeleteIs it just me, or does this appear to be a kind of torture for parents and children? Inflicted by the very people we pay - with our hard earned money / tax dollars - to represent us or work for us.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have noticed how the Chinese community has played a big role in fighting back against the oppressiveness of child protection in this province. A big thank you to them for that. They are truly a credit to our province, and our nation, and stand for the highest democratic ideals. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteHow do we fight it? What are suggested steps? Write the media? Deluge your MLA with letters and emails? Organize protests? Pray and fast?
ReplyDeleteWhat would be effective if the facts of this case don't already outrage people?
I did some writing on my own case the other day as I am keeping notes about what my SW says to me. I think that CPS has lost the best interests of the child in all their passion for court. It is all forensic. My son got better. He is no longer ill, yet MCFD wants all this court time to determine forensics. It does not help him as he would just like to be a regular teenager at this time and wants to live at home without all this pressure from MCFD. Also, they do not want to honour what was worked out by Mary Ellen Turpel Lafonde which is to really give the youths in care a say about things. It is so hard for the SWs to honour that, it goes against their grain.
ReplyDeleteAlthough there is Chinese involvement, this is by no means a visible minority issue. State sponsored child removal affects not only parents but everyone in Canada. Perverted by special interests, the noble cause of protecting children has been betrayed long time ago. Profiteering and aggrandizement are the hidden agenda.
ReplyDeleteThere are compelling reasons to believe that state-sponsored child removal was instituted to destroy the First Nation a century ago. Read Stephen Harper's statement of apology to victims of residential schools (given on June 11, 2008) at:
http://ronunruhgps.blogspot.com/2010/10/in-all-probability.html#comments
and see how many similarities there are in modern "child protection". Natives remain the largest victim in this disguised oppression under the pretext of "child protection".
Mark my words. It is a matter of time that politicians have to make similar apology to the people of Canada along similar lines in the future. Thanks to Harper, his statement of apology makes the job of drafting an apology statement to victims of "child protection" easy. All one need to do is to replace residential schools by state-sponsored child removal.
The sad reality is we may have to wait another 30 years when those who could be held responsible are either dead or no longer in power. The harder we pursue, the stronger we stand in solidarity, the smarter we fight may shorten the time required. Millions of children will be removed in 30 years nationwide. There will be heartache and uncountable number of families destroyed. I pray that 3o years is a gross overestimate.
Off topic:
ReplyDeleteFoster mom of addicted kids struggling on ministry's puny payouts
http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Foster+addicted+kids+struggling+ministry+puny+payouts/3605895/story.html
The children in question turn out to be neice and nephew, so the foster mom in the story as a result gets half that of non-relatives.
Otherwise, she would get $3600 monthly for two special needs children ($1,800 per child) is the "regular" rate, $1,600 or $800 per child is half that rate. It is also the full rate for non-special needs children.
So, if we assume MCFD deems the Baynes children as "special needs" it would appear that Bethany's foster mom gets $5,400 monthly, or $64,800 tax free tax payer dollars annually.
Even so, imagine parents getting paid that much to take care of their own children compared to family allowances.
So let me get this straight:
ReplyDeleteFinn Jenson last said he needed an extra 2-1/2 hours for yesterday to complete his closing arguments, which he got yesterday morning.
In addition, the afternoon was available but it was used instead to discuss the Ministry application to change the Baynes visitation from 3 days to 2, but where there was no reduction in actual visit time?
What discussion occurred in the courtroom that allowed this last-minute Ministry application to get priority over Finn finishing his closing arguments, yet AGAIN?
If I didn't know any better, I would say Finn conjured up the idea of this application so he could use it to intentionally cause further delays. What a terrible trick.
If this sort of thing happened before some judges in the B.C. Supreme Court, the Ministry lawyer would be lambasted and called out on the carpet for using such sneaky underhanded tactics.
Then again, this entire process we are witnessing happening to the Baynes family is an affront to families and taxpayers.
Rumpelstiltskin was back in fine form yesterday, spinning straw into gold. It wasn't even straw, it was dross, spindrift and anything with a bad stench. He could only spin straw into gold, because the cash cow was once more waiting at the barn door mooing to have her enourmous udder drained. The cow's name is not Bossy. Many of her staff call her Bossy or even very bossy. No doubt some of the children's ministers who have worked under her called her bossy. So she invited Jensen to help himself to a few more thousand.
ReplyDeleteThere seems to be no depth to which the director will not sink. The Baynes filed a response in court yesterday in which they revealed that the social worker had appeared unannounced at an access visit and had threatened them if they declined a meeting with the director. He had even gone as far as threatening to remove their expected child from them if he felt they were no complying with the director's wishes. This threat was repeated in a letter from John Fitzsimmons,the superior of Humeny and Gulbot.
Last week Jensen was telling the judge that the case was costing too much money. Yesterday he stretched it out even more. He spent a lot of time on the totally stupid and irrelevant testimony of the Hoffmans. Their testimony was an egregious waste of the court's time and Christie cut short the cross-examination. What is the use of cross-examining garbage?
The ministry wants visiting to be six hours on a Saturday, so the Baynes want it to be in the family home. The judge tried to broker it on a volunatary basis, but the social worker stalled. He would have to assess the home first. He did not even know if it really existed and etc, etc. A home visit is one of the most basic and elementary tools that is taught to every novice social worker. Only a man of Humeny's calibre could fail to make a home visit in three years. Well let me tell you something Loren, I have made three home visits in the last year. One at their old address and two at their new one. And I live in Victoria. I can tell you that their home is spacious, tastefully furnished and beautifully kept. It is nicely set up for children. There is rather awkward jog off highway 10 to find it. However, if an 81 year old man with flawed faculties can do it, you should be able to manage. Actually you don't even have to go there now. You have the word of a retired social worker who was an RSW for over thirty years.
Ron; I am sure that all the Baynes supporters will be cheered by the news from the court today. The judge wants the Saturday visits to be in the family home. (Much to the chagrin of the director.) He wants a home visit and a home assessment to be done before October 6th and he wants to get everything finished by next Wednesday. This is good news because it is a gain for the Baynes. The judge feels that he is limited as to far he can go before Wednesday and final arguments from Jensen. However, I have said all along that access is a harbinger of what is to come and any gain is bad news for the director. What is bad news for the director is good news for the children.
ReplyDeleteThe link of Stephen Harper's statement of apology excerpts is at:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/11/pm-statement.html
not as stated in my previous submission earlier.
My apology.
I couldn't help but wonder yesterday, as I listened to Finn go on and on and on - repeating himself and spinning his tale ad infinitum - whether there was some sort of medication he could take for his obvious malady of verbal diarrhea?
ReplyDeleteTo everyone, please provide some suggestions to Anon 10:20 AM
ReplyDeleteHome study, supervised visits? Who on earth invented these? Does it occur to anyone that parents do not welcome these vermin into their homes? I have witnessed SW entering home, bedroom with their street shoes on, searching closets with a smirk on their face, picking on non-sense issues like dust on the floor alleging a child safety issue. This amounts to enter and search without a warrant using children as pawn. It is nothing more than a makeshift job creation project and fishing expedition.
ReplyDeleteHome study is an invasion of privacy, abuse of power and breaking the old English legal principle that a home is a man's castle.
A home may be a mans castle but if there are children there that may need protection someone has to do something to protect them. Would you rather the children were removed then ask questions later? If you've got nothing to hide it shouldnt be a problem!! Its comments like yours that make me doubt the Baynes innocence.
ReplyDeleteAnon 5:48 - I hear your emotions, clearly.
ReplyDeleteSimply re: the shoes in the home - you'll find SW are under same rules as anyone else when at work. Must wear close-toed shoes at all times in the event of an accident. This is a WorkSafeBC/WCB issue, not a "smirking SW" issue.
http://www.worksafebc.com/
Anon 11:28 - you may or may not have a point. But that was just plain rude.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with a majority of what most anon's on this web page say. But I actually don't agree with 100% of the way you have shared your opinion.
Hi again Anon 11:28 PM
ReplyDeleteI think you know as well as I do that your final sentence was not a logical result of taking issue with what 5:48 PM said earlier. There was no connection to the Baynes and the exceptions this writer was taking to the in house inspection. You simply wanted to say this, "Its comments like yours that make me doubt the Baynes innocence." The Baynes innocence or guilt does not relate to this commenter's remark does it?
CW,
ReplyDeleteAre you the same CW who said he/she wasn't going to make any more comments on this blog (I can't remember the reason why), but I do remember that someone who had the screen name CW wasn't going to make any more comments. I'm not saying you shouldn't make any comments; I'm just wondering if I have the right person in mind.